1 00:00:54,358 --> 00:00:56,099 This is the first time 2 00:00:56,230 --> 00:00:59,276 I've been back here in a year. 3 00:00:59,407 --> 00:01:02,540 It's the first crime scene 4 00:01:02,671 --> 00:01:04,063 I went and visited. 5 00:01:06,370 --> 00:01:09,175 I didn't see it at night 6 00:01:09,199 --> 00:01:12,135 the first time. 7 00:01:12,159 --> 00:01:15,118 It's a lot spookier and more threatening 8 00:01:15,249 --> 00:01:17,860 and more confusing at night. 9 00:01:23,518 --> 00:01:25,433 I feel like these places have memories 10 00:01:25,563 --> 00:01:30,002 and have sounds and smells. 11 00:01:30,133 --> 00:01:32,155 It's really important for me 12 00:01:32,179 --> 00:01:35,897 to walk in the victim's shoes 13 00:01:35,921 --> 00:01:38,098 when I'm trying to tell a story. 14 00:01:42,885 --> 00:01:45,690 Carol Alford was an African American woman. 15 00:01:45,714 --> 00:01:47,977 She was 41 years old. 16 00:01:48,108 --> 00:01:52,068 On the night of July 12, 1987, 17 00:01:52,199 --> 00:01:54,723 she met Sam Little, 18 00:01:54,853 --> 00:01:57,987 and they spent a few hours together, 19 00:01:58,118 --> 00:02:02,034 and by the morning, she was dead. 20 00:02:02,165 --> 00:02:04,689 She had been strangled, dragged, 21 00:02:04,820 --> 00:02:05,908 beaten. 22 00:02:07,823 --> 00:02:09,693 He killed her here, 23 00:02:09,824 --> 00:02:12,349 and she was left in this alley 24 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,439 with the trash. 25 00:02:15,570 --> 00:02:19,226 And I know because 26 00:02:19,356 --> 00:02:20,923 he told me that. 27 00:02:54,565 --> 00:02:56,698 The FBI calls Samuel Little. 28 00:02:56,828 --> 00:02:58,961 America's most prolific serial killer. 29 00:02:59,091 --> 00:03:02,245 Now, if you want me to tell my secrets to you, 30 00:03:02,269 --> 00:03:05,968 come down here and look me in my eye while I do. 31 00:03:06,098 --> 00:03:09,121 My deal with the devil is, 32 00:03:09,145 --> 00:03:13,236 "You will not die alone if you tell me the truth." 33 00:03:13,367 --> 00:03:14,605 I'm not going to admit to those girls. 34 00:03:14,629 --> 00:03:15,978 I don't believe you, 35 00:03:16,108 --> 00:03:18,546 so you tell me the truth right now. 36 00:03:18,676 --> 00:03:20,741 Little strangled 93 victims 37 00:03:20,765 --> 00:03:23,942 between 1970 and 2005. 38 00:03:24,073 --> 00:03:25,683 He was tried and got off 39 00:03:25,814 --> 00:03:27,685 again and again and again. 40 00:03:27,816 --> 00:03:29,600 Investigators believe that Samuel Little 41 00:03:29,731 --> 00:03:32,560 killed more people than serial killers Ted Bundy, 42 00:03:32,690 --> 00:03:36,346 John Wayne Gacy, and Jeffery Dahmer combined. 43 00:03:36,477 --> 00:03:37,671 If you weren't locked up, 44 00:03:37,695 --> 00:03:40,220 I'd probably be dead by now. 45 00:03:40,350 --> 00:03:42,831 You're right. 46 00:04:06,594 --> 00:04:09,007 I am Jillian Lauren. 47 00:04:09,031 --> 00:04:12,513 I'm an author and a true-crime journalist. 48 00:04:15,951 --> 00:04:20,303 I am writing a book about a serial killer 49 00:04:20,434 --> 00:04:22,305 Samuel Little. 50 00:04:22,436 --> 00:04:25,439 Samuel Little was convicted of three murders 51 00:04:25,569 --> 00:04:30,052 in Los Angeles in 2014, 52 00:04:30,182 --> 00:04:33,882 murders he vehemently denied. 53 00:04:41,890 --> 00:04:44,284 But I suspect 54 00:04:44,414 --> 00:04:47,983 that he killed so many more women across the country. 55 00:04:54,032 --> 00:04:57,166 I think that I can safely say 56 00:04:57,297 --> 00:05:00,822 I have written every day of my life since I was eight. 57 00:05:00,952 --> 00:05:04,826 What storytelling does for me is that it gives me a framework 58 00:05:04,956 --> 00:05:07,219 to make sense of the world. 59 00:05:07,350 --> 00:05:11,006 It instilled a curiosity in me 60 00:05:11,136 --> 00:05:15,271 and a desire to 61 00:05:15,402 --> 00:05:18,598 look into the more shadowy corners 62 00:05:18,622 --> 00:05:20,320 of humanity. 63 00:05:23,366 --> 00:05:27,892 In 2017, I was researching a mystery novel 64 00:05:28,023 --> 00:05:30,112 when I scored an interview 65 00:05:30,242 --> 00:05:33,245 with a veteran homicide detective. 66 00:05:36,074 --> 00:05:37,859 My name is Mitzi Roberts. 67 00:05:37,989 --> 00:05:40,862 I'm a detective with the Los Angeles Police Department, 68 00:05:40,992 --> 00:05:43,125 Robbery-Homicide Division. 69 00:05:43,255 --> 00:05:46,626 And I've been on the job, it's coming up on 25 years now. 70 00:05:46,650 --> 00:05:48,173 15-80, 61 71 00:05:48,304 --> 00:05:50,350 I love working homicides. 72 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,917 It's that ultimate puzzle. 73 00:05:53,048 --> 00:05:57,028 You have to be very tenacious. 74 00:05:57,052 --> 00:05:59,402 During my interview with Mitzi, 75 00:05:59,533 --> 00:06:03,251 I asked, "What cases are you the most proud of?" 76 00:06:03,275 --> 00:06:05,974 And she said, "Well, I'm proud of them all, 77 00:06:06,104 --> 00:06:10,761 but I did catch this serial killer once." 78 00:06:10,892 --> 00:06:15,375 Mitzi told me that there had been this serial killer 79 00:06:15,505 --> 00:06:19,944 who was active in Los Angeles in the '80s 80 00:06:20,075 --> 00:06:22,730 and that she had been 81 00:06:22,860 --> 00:06:25,863 the lead investigator on the case. 82 00:06:25,994 --> 00:06:29,563 He had been convicted of three murders, 83 00:06:29,693 --> 00:06:31,913 but she suspected there were many, many more murders 84 00:06:32,043 --> 00:06:33,088 across the country. 85 00:06:38,789 --> 00:06:42,184 And she started to tell me the story. 86 00:06:46,231 --> 00:06:48,669 In the early 2000s, 87 00:06:48,799 --> 00:06:52,281 when I was working in the Cold Case Unit, 88 00:06:52,412 --> 00:06:55,632 DNA was a newer technology, 89 00:06:55,763 --> 00:06:58,679 but it was having such major successes 90 00:06:58,809 --> 00:07:01,919 in solving violent crimes. 91 00:07:01,943 --> 00:07:04,946 Mitzi and I were assigned to work together. 92 00:07:05,076 --> 00:07:09,254 We knew we had probably 10,000 93 00:07:09,385 --> 00:07:13,084 unsolved murders going back to 1960. 94 00:07:13,215 --> 00:07:14,956 It's mind-boggling. 95 00:07:17,654 --> 00:07:20,440 In the '80s, the crack-cocaine epidemic 96 00:07:20,570 --> 00:07:23,723 was out of control. 97 00:07:23,747 --> 00:07:26,010 There was a lot of prostitution, 98 00:07:26,141 --> 00:07:29,361 and a large portion of it was focused 99 00:07:29,492 --> 00:07:32,800 in the South Central portion of Los Angeles. 100 00:07:32,930 --> 00:07:35,411 Prostitutes often times, 101 00:07:35,542 --> 00:07:38,521 drug users 102 00:07:38,545 --> 00:07:41,243 the wayward souls 103 00:07:41,373 --> 00:07:43,395 quite often, they were victimized, 104 00:07:43,419 --> 00:07:46,117 whether they were just raped and beat 105 00:07:46,248 --> 00:07:48,642 or murdered. 106 00:07:48,772 --> 00:07:52,099 Now we know there were multiple serial killers 107 00:07:52,123 --> 00:07:56,060 in the area at the time, 108 00:07:56,084 --> 00:07:57,444 and that was their hunting ground. 109 00:08:40,345 --> 00:08:41,738 Audrey Nelson was found 110 00:08:41,869 --> 00:08:45,307 on August 14, 1989 111 00:08:47,701 --> 00:08:51,158 in a trash dumpster behind a Chinese-food restaurant 112 00:08:51,182 --> 00:08:55,056 in the central downtown area of Los Angeles. 113 00:08:55,186 --> 00:08:57,798 Audrey had an extensive arrest record 114 00:08:57,928 --> 00:09:01,323 for drug and prostitution related crimes. 115 00:09:01,453 --> 00:09:05,632 She was also a mother of a young child. 116 00:09:05,762 --> 00:09:09,200 And the cause of death was manual strangulation. 117 00:09:10,985 --> 00:09:12,464 Approximately three weeks later, 118 00:09:12,595 --> 00:09:14,878 the body of Guadalupe Apodaca was found 119 00:09:14,902 --> 00:09:19,080 on September 3, 1989. 120 00:09:19,210 --> 00:09:24,104 She was found in an abandoned auto-body shop. 121 00:09:24,128 --> 00:09:26,478 Her body was shoved into a corner 122 00:09:26,609 --> 00:09:30,807 on an old discarded mattress. 123 00:09:30,831 --> 00:09:33,790 Guadalupe Apodaca was Hispanic. 124 00:09:33,921 --> 00:09:37,054 She had prior offenses 125 00:09:37,185 --> 00:09:40,667 for drug related crimes and prostitution. 126 00:09:40,797 --> 00:09:42,973 She had two sons at the time. 127 00:09:46,411 --> 00:09:50,566 On July 13, 1987, 128 00:09:50,590 --> 00:09:54,985 the body of Carol Alford, a Black female mother, 129 00:09:55,116 --> 00:09:57,771 was found discarded 130 00:09:57,901 --> 00:10:00,097 in an alleyway. 131 00:10:00,121 --> 00:10:02,602 Not a prostitute, 132 00:10:02,732 --> 00:10:04,821 but known to occasionally drink and... 133 00:10:04,952 --> 00:10:08,018 And possibly had some issues with narcotics. 134 00:10:13,264 --> 00:10:16,224 All of these women were beaten 135 00:10:16,354 --> 00:10:19,943 and manually strangled to death. 136 00:10:19,967 --> 00:10:24,928 And all of these murder locations 137 00:10:25,059 --> 00:10:27,211 were in a few miles of each other. 138 00:10:29,716 --> 00:10:33,981 As many times as you see the MO, 139 00:10:34,111 --> 00:10:37,332 it's still shocking to look at a woman's body 140 00:10:37,462 --> 00:10:39,856 discarded with trash 141 00:10:39,987 --> 00:10:42,424 and dumped by the side of the road. 142 00:10:45,253 --> 00:10:47,385 These three women, 143 00:10:47,516 --> 00:10:51,215 their homicides went unsolved for decades. 144 00:10:54,262 --> 00:10:57,482 And then in 2012, 145 00:10:57,613 --> 00:11:00,181 I got a hit, a DNA hit, 146 00:11:00,311 --> 00:11:03,401 on the case of Audrey Nelson 147 00:11:03,532 --> 00:11:06,361 and Guadalupe Apodaca 148 00:11:06,491 --> 00:11:09,843 and then Carol Alford. 149 00:11:09,973 --> 00:11:12,367 They have a link basically to the same suspect. 150 00:11:14,325 --> 00:11:16,850 Forensic analysis confirms 151 00:11:16,980 --> 00:11:19,679 that these three different cases matched 152 00:11:19,809 --> 00:11:21,637 with the same person's DNA. 153 00:11:25,075 --> 00:11:28,141 And that person was Samuel Little, 154 00:11:28,165 --> 00:11:31,212 AKA Samuel McDowell. 155 00:11:31,342 --> 00:11:34,998 At the time, he was 71 years old. 156 00:11:35,129 --> 00:11:37,871 So, once I get that name, I'm off to the races. 157 00:11:40,656 --> 00:11:44,181 In 2012, Detective Roberts came to me 158 00:11:44,312 --> 00:11:46,706 because of the experience that I had handling, 159 00:11:46,836 --> 00:11:49,404 you know, half a dozen or so serial killers. 160 00:11:49,534 --> 00:11:51,754 I am Beth Silverman. 161 00:11:51,885 --> 00:11:53,408 I'm a deputy district attorney 162 00:11:53,538 --> 00:11:55,473 with the LA County District Attorney's Office, 163 00:11:55,497 --> 00:11:58,718 assigned to the Major Crimes Division. 164 00:11:58,848 --> 00:12:00,676 One of the first things we did, obviously, 165 00:12:00,807 --> 00:12:03,133 was look at Sam Little's rap sheet. 166 00:12:03,157 --> 00:12:06,290 It's shocking 167 00:12:06,421 --> 00:12:10,294 not only the level of violence 168 00:12:10,425 --> 00:12:13,384 against women, 169 00:12:13,515 --> 00:12:15,778 but how long of a rap sheet it was. 170 00:12:18,781 --> 00:12:22,611 It went back all the way until when he was a teenager. 171 00:12:23,917 --> 00:12:27,050 What was amazing was that he had been arrested, 172 00:12:27,181 --> 00:12:31,272 I think it was in 24 different states. 173 00:12:31,402 --> 00:12:34,492 Just arrest after arrest after arrest, 174 00:12:34,623 --> 00:12:38,061 many for assault, sexual assaults, 175 00:12:38,192 --> 00:12:40,455 murder. 176 00:12:40,585 --> 00:12:44,764 But he wasn't spending a lot of time in jail. 177 00:12:44,894 --> 00:12:45,765 Holy crap. 178 00:12:45,895 --> 00:12:47,505 So that's disturbing 179 00:12:47,636 --> 00:12:50,136 because the potential that he's still doing 180 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,250 violent crimes against women is likely. 181 00:12:54,948 --> 00:12:57,622 Mitzi began to suspect 182 00:12:57,646 --> 00:13:00,973 that he might commit more murders, 183 00:13:00,997 --> 00:13:03,846 sexually motivated serial murders 184 00:13:03,870 --> 00:13:06,698 across the country. 185 00:13:06,829 --> 00:13:09,353 She knew she had to get this guy into custody, 186 00:13:09,484 --> 00:13:11,375 so she began to track him. 187 00:13:14,315 --> 00:13:16,099 Basically I was following him 188 00:13:16,230 --> 00:13:19,799 wherever he left a digital or written trace 189 00:13:19,929 --> 00:13:21,235 of being somewhere. 190 00:13:24,020 --> 00:13:26,631 I'm actively tracking him, trying to find him, 191 00:13:26,762 --> 00:13:28,546 but he was on the move, 192 00:13:28,677 --> 00:13:30,984 and I was always one step behind him, 193 00:13:31,114 --> 00:13:32,986 three days behind him. 194 00:13:33,116 --> 00:13:36,293 Until somebody identifies him or his license plate, 195 00:13:36,424 --> 00:13:39,925 I'm stuck kind of only knowing the last place he went. 196 00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:44,911 And then Mitzi learned 197 00:13:45,041 --> 00:13:48,479 that Sam Little was receiving 198 00:13:48,610 --> 00:13:51,091 some type of disability benefits out of state, 199 00:13:51,221 --> 00:13:53,310 and so she was able to track those benefits 200 00:13:53,441 --> 00:13:56,923 to Louisville, Kentucky. 201 00:13:57,053 --> 00:14:00,013 And I'm like, "Bam, I-I got you." 202 00:14:00,143 --> 00:14:04,191 So I immediately call the U.S. Marshals. 203 00:14:04,321 --> 00:14:07,194 I want to say within no more than three hours, 204 00:14:07,324 --> 00:14:09,718 I get a call, and he's in custody. 205 00:14:09,849 --> 00:14:12,634 I said, "Bingo, they got him." 206 00:14:14,897 --> 00:14:17,682 On September 2, 2014, 207 00:14:17,813 --> 00:14:19,859 Little was found guilty of all three counts 208 00:14:19,989 --> 00:14:22,359 of first-degree murder. 209 00:14:22,383 --> 00:14:24,776 A serial killer has learned his fate. 210 00:14:24,907 --> 00:14:27,494 74-year-old Samuel Little was sentenced today 211 00:14:27,518 --> 00:14:30,019 for killing three women in South Los Angeles 212 00:14:30,043 --> 00:14:32,306 in the 1980s. 213 00:14:32,436 --> 00:14:35,439 Crimes involved great violence, cruelty, and viciousness. 214 00:14:35,570 --> 00:14:38,094 Shackled to the sides of his wheelchair, 215 00:14:38,225 --> 00:14:41,315 Samuel Little was not interested in apologizing. 216 00:14:41,445 --> 00:14:44,971 This conviction was brought on by lies 217 00:14:45,101 --> 00:14:48,017 and liars coached by liars. 218 00:14:48,148 --> 00:14:50,585 Throughout the entire trial, 219 00:14:50,715 --> 00:14:54,806 Sam Little vehemently denied committing these murders 220 00:14:54,937 --> 00:14:57,505 again and again and again. 221 00:14:57,635 --> 00:14:59,439 Today the 74-year-old was sentenced 222 00:14:59,463 --> 00:15:01,683 to three consecutive life terms 223 00:15:01,813 --> 00:15:03,815 without the possibility of parole. 224 00:15:03,946 --> 00:15:04,991 He's off the streets. 225 00:15:05,121 --> 00:15:09,038 They managed to put him away. 226 00:15:09,169 --> 00:15:10,953 But it always nagged at me 227 00:15:11,084 --> 00:15:13,913 because I knew... I knew he was a serial killer. 228 00:15:14,043 --> 00:15:16,219 I knew he was good for more. 229 00:15:16,350 --> 00:15:19,309 I knew there was unsolveds out there. 230 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:23,835 And I can't get anybody interested in it, in the story. 231 00:15:23,966 --> 00:15:28,101 Mitzi felt that these had been under reported cases, 232 00:15:28,231 --> 00:15:31,713 in large part because Samuel Little's victims 233 00:15:31,843 --> 00:15:33,454 were in marginalized populations 234 00:15:35,978 --> 00:15:38,763 women of color, drug addicts, prostitutes, 235 00:15:38,894 --> 00:15:41,853 women who were considered 236 00:15:41,984 --> 00:15:42,984 unimportant. 237 00:15:46,728 --> 00:15:50,166 "This phenomenon has been referred to as being 238 00:15:50,297 --> 00:15:53,865 "'less dead.' 239 00:15:53,996 --> 00:15:57,217 "Marginalized homicide victims historically 240 00:15:57,347 --> 00:15:59,480 "are not as thoroughly investigated 241 00:15:59,610 --> 00:16:02,024 "as their wealthier, whiter, 242 00:16:02,048 --> 00:16:05,766 "and perhaps more sober counterparts. 243 00:16:05,790 --> 00:16:08,750 "Pretty, white college students are the 'most dead.' 244 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,927 Black hookers are the 'least dead.'" 245 00:16:14,712 --> 00:16:18,760 The idea that there were so many women out there, 246 00:16:18,890 --> 00:16:22,827 potentially so many victims 247 00:16:22,851 --> 00:16:26,637 who had been brutalized and forgotten 248 00:16:26,768 --> 00:16:30,467 is not acceptable to me. 249 00:16:32,817 --> 00:16:35,361 And when I learned he was a strangler, 250 00:16:35,385 --> 00:16:38,127 that was what planted the seed in me 251 00:16:38,258 --> 00:16:41,174 to start pursuing this story, 252 00:16:41,304 --> 00:16:45,178 because I was a victim, too, 253 00:16:45,308 --> 00:16:49,051 somebody who was lucky enough 254 00:16:49,182 --> 00:16:52,794 to have survived. 255 00:16:54,665 --> 00:16:56,817 When I was 20 years old, 256 00:16:56,841 --> 00:16:59,192 I went to Mills College, 257 00:16:59,322 --> 00:17:03,022 which is a women's college in Oakland, California. 258 00:17:03,152 --> 00:17:06,676 I eventually was introduced 259 00:17:06,808 --> 00:17:07,983 to heroin. 260 00:17:10,116 --> 00:17:12,509 The first time I tried heroin, I 261 00:17:14,642 --> 00:17:18,776 was just like... 262 00:17:18,906 --> 00:17:22,345 "This is the way I've been waiting to feel." 263 00:17:22,476 --> 00:17:25,695 Really, it was just like breathing. 264 00:17:25,827 --> 00:17:29,309 It was like I finally took a full breath. 265 00:17:29,439 --> 00:17:31,876 And that was it. 266 00:17:32,007 --> 00:17:35,987 I decided I liked heroin better than I liked college. 267 00:17:39,014 --> 00:17:42,235 I was in a pretty dark place at that time. 268 00:17:42,365 --> 00:17:45,064 I was really lost. 269 00:17:45,194 --> 00:17:47,544 I wound up meeting this guy 270 00:17:47,675 --> 00:17:49,981 who became my boyfriend, 271 00:17:50,112 --> 00:17:54,812 and he was really explosive, 272 00:17:54,943 --> 00:17:57,859 and he was really bright and so exciting, 273 00:17:57,989 --> 00:18:01,471 and, um, you know, 274 00:18:01,602 --> 00:18:03,299 and-and was also a heroin addict. 275 00:18:06,563 --> 00:18:10,001 And we were living together at the time. 276 00:18:10,132 --> 00:18:13,546 It was a-a while before he 277 00:18:13,570 --> 00:18:16,573 became violent. 278 00:18:16,704 --> 00:18:18,551 And then he started shoving me up against a wall. 279 00:18:18,575 --> 00:18:21,293 Then he started, um, 280 00:18:21,317 --> 00:18:24,644 barricading me in the house for days. 281 00:18:24,668 --> 00:18:27,758 He was emotionally abusive as well, 282 00:18:27,889 --> 00:18:31,197 and my friends started to get really concerned. 283 00:18:31,327 --> 00:18:33,827 And they said, you know, like, 284 00:18:33,851 --> 00:18:36,245 "We're worried. You have to get out. 285 00:18:36,376 --> 00:18:40,293 We're worried for your safety. He is very dangerous." 286 00:18:40,423 --> 00:18:42,773 So I got a storage space, 287 00:18:42,904 --> 00:18:47,387 and I made a plan to move to Los Angeles. 288 00:18:47,517 --> 00:18:49,128 Shit. 289 00:18:51,347 --> 00:18:54,089 Just give me a second, okay? 290 00:18:56,309 --> 00:18:58,963 And I didn't tell him, 291 00:18:59,094 --> 00:19:02,793 and I was packing my stuff one day 292 00:19:02,924 --> 00:19:05,100 when he came home. 293 00:19:05,231 --> 00:19:07,058 I remember I was in the kitchen. 294 00:19:07,189 --> 00:19:10,497 I was placing each one of my glasses in a box. 295 00:19:10,627 --> 00:19:12,605 And he was, like, two feet from me, 296 00:19:12,629 --> 00:19:14,936 and he was just crying and crying. 297 00:19:19,810 --> 00:19:23,858 I kept packing the glasses, and, um 298 00:19:23,988 --> 00:19:26,315 like, the next thing I knew, I was on the floor, 299 00:19:26,339 --> 00:19:29,124 and he was on top of me, 300 00:19:29,255 --> 00:19:32,736 and his hands were around my neck. 301 00:19:32,867 --> 00:19:35,609 And I was coming to, 302 00:19:40,135 --> 00:19:43,897 and, and it was like 303 00:19:43,921 --> 00:19:46,228 I thought that I... I might be dead. 304 00:19:49,492 --> 00:19:52,582 I looked up at him, and he had his hands like this. 305 00:19:54,497 --> 00:19:56,388 He just looked so exhilarated, 306 00:19:56,412 --> 00:19:58,588 and I couldn't tell if he was exhilarated 307 00:19:58,719 --> 00:20:00,697 because he had finally tried to kill me 308 00:20:00,721 --> 00:20:02,766 or because he had stopped himself. 309 00:20:05,204 --> 00:20:07,815 I felt very confused. 310 00:20:07,945 --> 00:20:11,601 And then there was this undercurrent 311 00:20:11,732 --> 00:20:14,387 of pain and shame. 312 00:20:16,824 --> 00:20:20,369 After that, he stood up, 313 00:20:20,393 --> 00:20:23,918 and he reached his hand out to me 314 00:20:24,048 --> 00:20:26,050 to lift me off the floor. 315 00:20:26,181 --> 00:20:28,246 And he pulled me up, 316 00:20:28,270 --> 00:20:31,186 and 317 00:20:31,317 --> 00:20:33,841 it's still the moment I most regret. 318 00:20:35,973 --> 00:20:40,195 I just wish I hadn't let him pull me up. 319 00:20:40,326 --> 00:20:43,590 I just wish I had gotten back onto my feet by myself, but. 320 00:20:48,899 --> 00:20:50,423 I did eventually. 321 00:20:55,123 --> 00:20:58,561 When you've had a painful past, 322 00:20:58,692 --> 00:21:00,998 it can create a sense of empathy. 323 00:21:02,870 --> 00:21:06,066 That's why I care about these victims. 324 00:21:06,090 --> 00:21:08,571 I want to understand 325 00:21:08,702 --> 00:21:12,749 violence against women in this culture. 326 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,404 And this is the part I can play in this 327 00:21:15,535 --> 00:21:19,950 to bring some sort of voice, story, 328 00:21:19,974 --> 00:21:23,325 justice, humanity to these victims 329 00:21:23,456 --> 00:21:27,416 who are dehumanized 330 00:21:27,547 --> 00:21:29,592 by being ignored. 331 00:21:31,986 --> 00:21:35,642 An essential part of the story 332 00:21:35,772 --> 00:21:39,210 is obviously Samuel Little. 333 00:21:39,341 --> 00:21:41,300 So I started reaching out to him. 334 00:21:41,430 --> 00:21:43,432 I-I-I wrote him a letter. 335 00:21:43,563 --> 00:21:47,436 I told him I was interested in his story. 336 00:21:47,567 --> 00:21:50,570 I was scared of him in the beginning. 337 00:21:50,700 --> 00:21:53,157 I remember the first letter I opened of his, 338 00:21:53,181 --> 00:21:55,618 I wore gloves. 339 00:21:55,749 --> 00:21:57,204 You know, like, I wore rubber gloves. 340 00:21:57,228 --> 00:22:01,078 I was so grossed out. 341 00:22:01,102 --> 00:22:05,324 And we exchanged letters. 342 00:22:05,454 --> 00:22:08,675 Then I applied to visit him in prison, 343 00:22:08,805 --> 00:22:11,155 and I got approved. 344 00:22:11,286 --> 00:22:12,959 I'll tell you one thing about Jillian, 345 00:22:12,983 --> 00:22:14,855 when she gets an idea in her head 346 00:22:14,985 --> 00:22:17,336 that she wants to do something, it is gonna happen. 347 00:22:17,466 --> 00:22:21,252 I am Scott G. Shriner, 348 00:22:21,383 --> 00:22:25,169 husband of Jillian Lauren, 349 00:22:25,300 --> 00:22:29,957 father of Tariku and Jovanni Shriner. 350 00:22:30,087 --> 00:22:32,327 My husband is the bassist 351 00:22:32,351 --> 00:22:35,112 of the band Weezer. 352 00:22:35,136 --> 00:22:38,357 And he is a shredder. And he's awesome. 353 00:22:40,054 --> 00:22:41,360 Wait, what about this one? 354 00:22:43,144 --> 00:22:43,971 What do you think about this one? 355 00:22:44,101 --> 00:22:46,365 Who's that? 356 00:22:46,495 --> 00:22:49,933 - Well, that's Mommy. - Wait, that's you? 357 00:22:50,064 --> 00:22:52,371 That doesn't look like you at all. 358 00:22:54,198 --> 00:22:57,985 I told my husband, "I'm gonna pursue this. 359 00:22:58,115 --> 00:23:00,988 It's about these victims. It's about these women." 360 00:23:01,118 --> 00:23:04,054 And I believe 361 00:23:04,078 --> 00:23:06,515 there are many more victims out there 362 00:23:06,646 --> 00:23:09,736 whose cases are unsolved. 363 00:23:09,866 --> 00:23:11,266 What do you... what do you think of 364 00:23:11,302 --> 00:23:13,435 when you look at this picture? 365 00:23:13,566 --> 00:23:16,743 Dad looks pretty handsome in that picture. 366 00:23:16,873 --> 00:23:19,069 I was reluctant. 367 00:23:19,093 --> 00:23:20,679 I was like, "I don't know about, you know", 368 00:23:20,703 --> 00:23:23,314 "getting friendly with the guy." 369 00:23:23,445 --> 00:23:26,056 "I mean, he's a vicious killer." 370 00:23:26,187 --> 00:23:28,470 You know, "Are you gonna be safe? 371 00:23:28,494 --> 00:23:32,106 What's this what is this gonna do to you emotionally?" 372 00:23:32,236 --> 00:23:34,476 I got to kind of watch out for my well-being 373 00:23:34,500 --> 00:23:35,500 and our kids, too. 374 00:23:37,590 --> 00:23:40,375 And, we talked about it. 375 00:23:40,506 --> 00:23:42,072 It-it did seem important, 376 00:23:42,203 --> 00:23:44,921 and it seemed like it meant a lot to her. 377 00:23:44,945 --> 00:23:47,663 These victims' stories need to be told, 378 00:23:47,687 --> 00:23:52,126 and the importance of it outweighed my reluctance. 379 00:23:52,256 --> 00:23:55,869 My husband was like, "I support you." 380 00:23:55,999 --> 00:23:59,220 And I said, "I'm going in there." 381 00:24:02,441 --> 00:24:04,157 "I'm going in there, 382 00:24:04,181 --> 00:24:05,922 and I'm gonna talk to Sam Little." 383 00:24:14,975 --> 00:24:18,326 When I drove up to the guard station, 384 00:24:18,457 --> 00:24:20,197 I had a panic attack. 385 00:24:20,328 --> 00:24:22,393 It's pretty nerve-racking. 386 00:24:22,417 --> 00:24:27,204 He is a vicious killer. 387 00:24:27,335 --> 00:24:29,076 But I just thought, 388 00:24:29,206 --> 00:24:32,079 "I'm just gonna not be afraid." 389 00:24:32,209 --> 00:24:34,100 That's what he feeds off of, 390 00:24:34,124 --> 00:24:36,605 is women's fear. 391 00:24:39,956 --> 00:24:43,806 When I walked inside... 392 00:24:43,830 --> 00:24:46,267 It's one of the largest prisons in the country. 393 00:24:48,965 --> 00:24:51,054 It was truly terrifying 394 00:24:51,185 --> 00:24:54,556 to walk into that giant cage. 395 00:25:00,281 --> 00:25:02,196 And it is very hot. 396 00:25:02,326 --> 00:25:06,306 It really-it really is hell. 397 00:25:06,330 --> 00:25:10,073 My knees were actually, like, knocking together. 398 00:25:10,204 --> 00:25:12,902 When I finally entered. 399 00:25:13,033 --> 00:25:16,340 B Block visiting room, 400 00:25:16,471 --> 00:25:19,779 I-I made it, and I got in, and I sat there, 401 00:25:19,909 --> 00:25:23,149 and I waited, and I was watching a door 402 00:25:23,173 --> 00:25:25,132 in the other side of the room, 403 00:25:25,262 --> 00:25:28,135 and Sam came out of the other door. 404 00:25:28,265 --> 00:25:30,180 By the time I noticed he was there, 405 00:25:30,311 --> 00:25:32,531 he was, like, right here. 406 00:25:35,011 --> 00:25:38,058 There was this serial killer four inches from my face. 407 00:25:40,364 --> 00:25:42,671 And he said, "You. 408 00:25:42,802 --> 00:25:44,847 You." 409 00:25:44,978 --> 00:25:49,199 And I was like, "What's gonna happen now?" 410 00:25:49,330 --> 00:25:52,289 He said, "You" 411 00:25:52,420 --> 00:25:54,465 "are my angel come to visit me from Heaven. 412 00:25:54,596 --> 00:25:55,771 What do you want to know?" 413 00:25:57,817 --> 00:26:01,995 It was almost like I couldn't move. 414 00:26:02,125 --> 00:26:04,258 I'm processing the fact that I, you know, 415 00:26:04,388 --> 00:26:08,784 I've really never sat in front of a murderer before. 416 00:26:08,915 --> 00:26:11,744 And the first thing that struck me was his eyes. 417 00:26:13,963 --> 00:26:18,204 And what I see is, like, there's nothing behind them. 418 00:26:20,491 --> 00:26:22,189 There's nothing. 419 00:26:25,453 --> 00:26:27,586 I said, "You know, I'm a writer" 420 00:26:27,716 --> 00:26:32,416 "who is-is curious about violent crime. 421 00:26:32,547 --> 00:26:35,158 I'm wondering if you might be able to help me." 422 00:26:35,289 --> 00:26:38,379 And that whole first day, 423 00:26:38,509 --> 00:26:41,904 he just fed me a line of shit. 424 00:26:42,035 --> 00:26:44,603 "You know, I was framed." 425 00:26:53,263 --> 00:26:55,178 He maintained his innocence. 426 00:26:55,309 --> 00:26:58,680 You know, "DNA is bullshit." 427 00:26:58,704 --> 00:27:02,098 "All that proves is that you were somewhere. 428 00:27:02,229 --> 00:27:04,274 "I have just been in the wrong place 429 00:27:04,405 --> 00:27:05,948 at the wrong time." 430 00:27:07,451 --> 00:27:11,562 I knew that he was lying. 431 00:27:11,586 --> 00:27:13,980 And then I said goodbye, 432 00:27:14,110 --> 00:27:17,026 and I went home. 433 00:27:17,157 --> 00:27:20,551 I was feeling pretty despondent. 434 00:27:26,645 --> 00:27:29,343 But it lit a fire in me 435 00:27:29,473 --> 00:27:31,562 and made me determined 436 00:27:31,693 --> 00:27:35,436 to look deeper into Sam's past. 437 00:27:35,566 --> 00:27:37,699 These are two 438 00:27:37,830 --> 00:27:41,094 of the 27 notebooks of research 439 00:27:41,224 --> 00:27:42,530 I have on this case, 440 00:27:42,661 --> 00:27:45,185 and this is really where it started. 441 00:27:45,315 --> 00:27:48,294 I started looking at the public records, 442 00:27:48,318 --> 00:27:50,949 calling local jurisdictions, 443 00:27:50,973 --> 00:27:53,759 and I 444 00:27:53,889 --> 00:27:57,545 couldn't believe what I was finding. 445 00:27:57,676 --> 00:27:59,958 I read his rap sheet, 446 00:27:59,982 --> 00:28:00,982 which was 447 00:28:02,202 --> 00:28:04,552 astounding. 448 00:28:04,683 --> 00:28:08,469 Samuel Little had a rap sheet over 100 pages long, 449 00:28:08,599 --> 00:28:12,386 everything from petty theft 450 00:28:12,516 --> 00:28:14,649 to assault to rape 451 00:28:14,780 --> 00:28:17,260 to murder. 452 00:28:17,391 --> 00:28:19,001 There have been a lot 453 00:28:19,132 --> 00:28:23,223 of sexual assault victims. 454 00:28:23,353 --> 00:28:26,835 He was tried and got off again and again and again. 455 00:28:26,966 --> 00:28:28,204 I thought, "This can't be true. 456 00:28:28,228 --> 00:28:31,424 This is outrageous." 457 00:28:31,448 --> 00:28:34,384 I was furious. 458 00:28:34,408 --> 00:28:36,081 And when I find something hard to believe, 459 00:28:36,105 --> 00:28:37,716 I'm not gonna take it at face value. 460 00:28:37,846 --> 00:28:40,259 I'm gonna go in 461 00:28:40,283 --> 00:28:42,851 and really do the investigative work 462 00:28:42,982 --> 00:28:44,592 and confirm it, 463 00:28:44,723 --> 00:28:48,988 because I thought, "There's no way this is true. 464 00:28:49,118 --> 00:28:51,860 There must've been something else going on." 465 00:28:51,991 --> 00:28:53,819 And if there wasn't, 466 00:28:53,949 --> 00:28:55,995 why? 467 00:28:56,125 --> 00:28:59,041 Like, why did he get away with this for so long? 468 00:28:59,172 --> 00:29:00,347 And how? 469 00:29:03,524 --> 00:29:07,354 So, in 2018, 470 00:29:07,484 --> 00:29:09,922 I went to Pascagoula, Mississippi, 471 00:29:10,052 --> 00:29:12,402 to meet Hilda Nelson. 472 00:29:12,533 --> 00:29:14,753 Hilda Nelson is one 473 00:29:14,883 --> 00:29:18,844 of Sam's surviving victims. 474 00:29:18,974 --> 00:29:21,324 She was attacked by Sam Little 475 00:29:21,455 --> 00:29:24,980 in July 1980, 476 00:29:25,111 --> 00:29:27,287 but somehow survived. 477 00:29:30,246 --> 00:29:31,857 When I went to Pascagoula, 478 00:29:31,987 --> 00:29:35,991 it was my first real fieldwork 479 00:29:36,122 --> 00:29:38,970 around the Sam Little case. 480 00:29:38,994 --> 00:29:41,756 This is my little recorder. 481 00:29:41,780 --> 00:29:44,391 When I do research, I, you know, 482 00:29:44,521 --> 00:29:48,221 when given permission, always record any conversation. 483 00:29:48,351 --> 00:29:52,549 Um, so this is my audio of Hilda Nelson, 484 00:29:52,573 --> 00:29:56,882 who I hoped could give me a window 485 00:29:57,012 --> 00:29:58,361 unto a world 486 00:29:58,492 --> 00:30:01,234 in which Sam operated... 487 00:30:03,062 --> 00:30:05,281 Carver Village. 488 00:30:08,807 --> 00:30:11,026 What was it like? Describe it to me. 489 00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:23,952 What were the clubs like? 490 00:30:24,083 --> 00:30:26,041 Were they bars? Was there dancing? 491 00:30:34,354 --> 00:30:36,922 Before the incident happened with Sam, 492 00:30:37,052 --> 00:30:38,619 was there ever any violence? 493 00:32:55,408 --> 00:32:57,410 Hilda was just like, 494 00:32:57,540 --> 00:33:00,911 "I don't count on this justice system 495 00:33:00,935 --> 00:33:03,546 "to bring any kind of accountability 496 00:33:03,677 --> 00:33:06,985 or justice to me." 497 00:33:07,115 --> 00:33:11,902 She said the only reason anyone cared 498 00:33:12,033 --> 00:33:15,950 that a Black prostitute in Mississippi was attacked 499 00:33:16,081 --> 00:33:19,127 was when a white girl went missing 500 00:33:19,258 --> 00:33:21,782 two years later. 501 00:33:21,912 --> 00:33:25,066 And that girl was Melinda LaPree. 502 00:33:30,878 --> 00:33:32,314 My sister, Mindy, 503 00:33:32,445 --> 00:33:35,926 she went missing in September of 1982. 504 00:33:36,057 --> 00:33:39,645 Her boyfriend called my father 505 00:33:39,669 --> 00:33:41,671 to tell him that, you know, Mindy's missing. 506 00:33:44,935 --> 00:33:48,915 I was really worried, obviously. 507 00:33:48,939 --> 00:33:52,049 Her boyfriend, he had been told 508 00:33:52,073 --> 00:33:54,356 by some of her friends that she had gotten 509 00:33:54,380 --> 00:33:58,862 into a car with a man and never saw her again. 510 00:33:58,993 --> 00:34:01,648 I was certainly very, concerned 511 00:34:01,778 --> 00:34:04,975 that something terrible had happened. 512 00:34:04,999 --> 00:34:07,088 That's when I started to get in contact 513 00:34:07,219 --> 00:34:09,917 with the authorities. 514 00:34:10,047 --> 00:34:11,745 Melinda LaPree was a white female. 515 00:34:11,875 --> 00:34:13,399 She's 22 years old. 516 00:34:13,529 --> 00:34:15,183 She was a prostitute. 517 00:34:15,313 --> 00:34:17,664 She's been missing. She's not come home. 518 00:34:17,793 --> 00:34:19,840 Their initial reaction was, 519 00:34:19,969 --> 00:34:22,538 "Well, we don't really have any reason 520 00:34:22,668 --> 00:34:24,235 "to think there has been foul play, 521 00:34:24,366 --> 00:34:26,629 "and so she may have just moved on 522 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,415 and not told anybody." 523 00:34:29,545 --> 00:34:31,199 It had only been a couple of hours, 524 00:34:31,330 --> 00:34:33,375 and the officer at the front desk 525 00:34:33,505 --> 00:34:35,744 basically told him, "Come back in the morning 526 00:34:35,768 --> 00:34:38,337 if she hasn't returned," which was typical in that day, 527 00:34:38,467 --> 00:34:41,121 for prostitutes to leave for days sometimes, 528 00:34:41,253 --> 00:34:43,013 only to come back and not really be missing. 529 00:34:45,474 --> 00:34:47,452 I suspect that Sam Little 530 00:34:47,476 --> 00:34:49,261 got away with this for so long 531 00:34:49,391 --> 00:34:51,524 because he was operating 532 00:34:51,654 --> 00:34:54,614 in communities he knew were ignored 533 00:34:56,659 --> 00:34:58,966 places where he was confident 534 00:34:59,097 --> 00:35:01,099 he wouldn't get caught 535 00:35:01,229 --> 00:35:04,058 because he felt his victims were invisible. 536 00:35:09,890 --> 00:35:11,979 Judson Brooks was 537 00:35:12,110 --> 00:35:14,242 one of the original investigators 538 00:35:14,373 --> 00:35:16,418 on the Melinda LaPree case in 1982. 539 00:35:19,813 --> 00:35:21,031 You remember this old paper? 540 00:35:21,162 --> 00:35:22,511 Yes, I do. 541 00:35:24,034 --> 00:35:25,664 It said, "Here's a female" 542 00:35:25,688 --> 00:35:27,995 "who was a witness that Melinda LaPree 543 00:35:28,126 --> 00:35:31,017 "getting into a-to a brown Pinto station wagon 544 00:35:31,041 --> 00:35:32,608 "with an Alabama tag 545 00:35:32,739 --> 00:35:34,480 the night of September the 15th." 546 00:35:34,610 --> 00:35:36,525 Right. 547 00:35:36,656 --> 00:35:39,093 Investigators that were working the case back then, 548 00:35:39,224 --> 00:35:41,898 they start interviewing some people that actually saw 549 00:35:41,922 --> 00:35:44,925 what car she got into and the-the driver behind the car. 550 00:35:45,055 --> 00:35:46,511 They watched her get in, 551 00:35:46,535 --> 00:35:47,817 and they seen him come back without her. 552 00:35:47,841 --> 00:35:49,451 Yeah. 553 00:35:49,582 --> 00:35:53,214 Well, that's not a whole lot to start with. 554 00:35:53,238 --> 00:35:56,739 The driver behind the car was a Black male. 555 00:35:56,763 --> 00:35:58,417 There were other prostitutes that saw her 556 00:35:58,547 --> 00:36:00,427 get into a station wagon with wood-grain panels 557 00:36:00,462 --> 00:36:04,007 and an Alabama tag. 558 00:36:04,031 --> 00:36:06,860 And that's what law enforcement began looking for. 559 00:36:09,471 --> 00:36:12,320 When I heard that Mindy was missing, 560 00:36:12,344 --> 00:36:14,041 I was really worried. 561 00:36:14,172 --> 00:36:15,651 And then, you know, 562 00:36:15,782 --> 00:36:17,827 one week became two weeks 563 00:36:17,958 --> 00:36:19,351 and then three weeks 564 00:36:19,481 --> 00:36:22,310 and more. 565 00:36:22,441 --> 00:36:24,617 Here she is when she was just a cute little girl. 566 00:36:26,575 --> 00:36:28,490 She was a happy child. Mindy would, you know, 567 00:36:28,621 --> 00:36:30,207 wake up and be in her crib in the morning, 568 00:36:30,231 --> 00:36:31,580 and she would be singing. 569 00:36:31,711 --> 00:36:33,234 Taught herself to play the flute. 570 00:36:33,365 --> 00:36:34,646 She played wonderful music, 571 00:36:34,670 --> 00:36:37,282 both flute and piano and... 572 00:36:37,412 --> 00:36:39,327 We had a piano in the house. 573 00:36:39,458 --> 00:36:41,721 2:001:00 or 2:00 in the morning, 574 00:36:41,851 --> 00:36:43,418 3:00 in the morning, all of a sudden, 575 00:36:43,549 --> 00:36:45,377 you hear Beethoven, 576 00:36:45,507 --> 00:36:48,162 or it could be "Stairway to Heaven." 577 00:36:48,293 --> 00:36:51,209 She could play by ear. 578 00:36:51,339 --> 00:36:52,775 She was really smart. 579 00:36:52,906 --> 00:36:54,864 She could sleep through class and get A's. 580 00:36:54,995 --> 00:36:56,214 And she did. 581 00:36:58,825 --> 00:37:00,479 It was an idyllic time, I think. 582 00:37:01,915 --> 00:37:03,699 It's kind of bittersweet to look at it. 583 00:37:09,879 --> 00:37:12,621 Our father was rather, emotionally cold 584 00:37:12,752 --> 00:37:15,233 and often quite violent. 585 00:37:15,363 --> 00:37:17,235 Yeah, he beat all of us, 586 00:37:17,365 --> 00:37:20,847 and Melinda and I took, I think, the brunt of it. 587 00:37:20,977 --> 00:37:23,478 Mindy suffered pretty heavily. 588 00:37:23,502 --> 00:37:26,853 We're talking some serious beatings here. 589 00:37:26,983 --> 00:37:29,247 Melinda started acting out 590 00:37:29,377 --> 00:37:31,640 and-and-and being rebellious. 591 00:37:34,077 --> 00:37:37,255 You know, she was living kind of a raw lifestyle, 592 00:37:37,385 --> 00:37:39,518 on-the-edge kind of living. 593 00:37:39,648 --> 00:37:42,782 Sold drugs. Took drugs, sold drugs. 594 00:37:42,912 --> 00:37:45,393 And she sold herself as a sex worker. 595 00:37:49,267 --> 00:37:51,834 In August 1982, 596 00:37:51,965 --> 00:37:54,750 Mindy called to say 597 00:37:54,881 --> 00:37:56,989 she was having a baby. 598 00:37:57,013 --> 00:37:59,189 And she was very... 599 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,323 Very upbeat and very happy about it. 600 00:38:02,454 --> 00:38:04,519 Mindy had her son, Will, 601 00:38:04,543 --> 00:38:07,328 in August 1982. 602 00:38:11,550 --> 00:38:13,291 And then she disappeared 603 00:38:13,421 --> 00:38:15,293 just three weeks later. 604 00:38:25,477 --> 00:38:27,957 Almost a month later, 605 00:38:28,088 --> 00:38:30,588 a body is found 606 00:38:30,612 --> 00:38:34,050 in a ditch in a cemetery 607 00:38:34,181 --> 00:38:36,314 in our sister city, Gautier, Mississippi. 608 00:38:39,447 --> 00:38:41,275 When we found the body, 609 00:38:41,406 --> 00:38:43,190 she was in a state of decomposition. 610 00:38:43,321 --> 00:38:45,061 She's already been out in the elements 611 00:38:45,192 --> 00:38:46,976 for almost a month. 612 00:38:49,675 --> 00:38:51,938 She was discarded like a bag of garbage. 613 00:38:57,335 --> 00:39:00,033 The autopsy report, it showed strangulation, 614 00:39:00,163 --> 00:39:01,948 manual strangulation. 615 00:39:09,651 --> 00:39:12,108 We knew it was a homicide. 616 00:39:12,132 --> 00:39:14,961 I think I went into shock. 617 00:39:15,091 --> 00:39:18,660 And I stayed that way for, you know, weeks. 618 00:39:18,791 --> 00:39:21,315 I mean, guilt, 619 00:39:21,446 --> 00:39:23,491 anger, rage. 620 00:39:25,537 --> 00:39:26,886 We were raised Catholic. 621 00:39:27,016 --> 00:39:30,411 She had a Catholic burial. 622 00:39:30,542 --> 00:39:32,195 I remember coming out of the church, 623 00:39:32,326 --> 00:39:35,547 lighting up a cigarette 624 00:39:35,677 --> 00:39:38,898 taking a couple puffs off of it, 625 00:39:39,028 --> 00:39:40,856 and putting it out in my hand 626 00:39:43,642 --> 00:39:45,663 just to feel something. 627 00:39:48,821 --> 00:39:51,756 It took me out. 628 00:39:51,780 --> 00:39:53,913 There's no other way to describe it. 629 00:40:00,789 --> 00:40:02,748 Two months after Melinda's murder, 630 00:40:02,878 --> 00:40:06,075 it's November, and we catch a break. 631 00:40:06,099 --> 00:40:08,469 A car is stopped 632 00:40:08,493 --> 00:40:12,105 two cities from us for shoplifting. 633 00:40:12,235 --> 00:40:14,388 It's a station wagon with a wood-grain panel 634 00:40:14,412 --> 00:40:16,805 and Alabama tag. 635 00:40:16,936 --> 00:40:20,679 It's the same car that Melinda was seen getting into. 636 00:40:20,809 --> 00:40:22,855 And then we have our suspect, 637 00:40:22,985 --> 00:40:25,747 and his name he gives is Sam McDowell. 638 00:40:25,771 --> 00:40:27,990 And, ultimately, we found out that Sam McDowell 639 00:40:28,121 --> 00:40:29,252 is actually Sam Little. 640 00:40:35,781 --> 00:40:37,391 So the investigators working the case, 641 00:40:37,522 --> 00:40:39,219 they're interviewing Sam Little. 642 00:40:41,439 --> 00:40:44,572 Sam is denying everything. "I wasn't here." 643 00:40:44,703 --> 00:40:46,071 "I don't know what you're talking about. 644 00:40:46,095 --> 00:40:47,488 I ain't killed nobody." 645 00:40:47,619 --> 00:40:50,796 Just denial, denial, denial. 646 00:40:50,926 --> 00:40:53,252 But investigators found receipts in the car 647 00:40:53,276 --> 00:40:56,105 that shows him at a hotel here. 648 00:40:56,236 --> 00:40:57,933 So he says he wasn't here, 649 00:40:58,064 --> 00:41:00,588 but we got motel receipts says he was. 650 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:01,937 Melinda LaPree was killed 651 00:41:02,068 --> 00:41:03,765 during the time that he was here, 652 00:41:03,896 --> 00:41:07,290 so, you know, we're-we're building a case. 653 00:41:07,421 --> 00:41:10,729 But, unfortunately, because of Melinda's body 654 00:41:10,859 --> 00:41:12,774 being out in the elements for so long, 655 00:41:12,905 --> 00:41:14,404 we didn't have any evidence to support 656 00:41:14,428 --> 00:41:16,362 that, Sam killed her. 657 00:41:16,386 --> 00:41:17,910 We didn't have any evidence 658 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,390 of her in the car that they-they found. 659 00:41:20,521 --> 00:41:22,456 We're gonna have challenges 660 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:24,656 in trying to get the evidence needed 661 00:41:24,786 --> 00:41:27,833 to-to get this thing in court. 662 00:41:51,813 --> 00:41:54,139 But I talked to the D.A. about holding him, 663 00:41:54,163 --> 00:41:55,314 but he said, "You can't hold him. 664 00:41:55,338 --> 00:41:56,731 You have nothing to hold him on." 665 00:41:56,862 --> 00:41:59,299 I said, "Well, maybe can I hold him on vagrancy?" 666 00:41:59,429 --> 00:42:01,344 He said, "No, I don't think so." 667 00:42:01,475 --> 00:42:03,061 You were trying to do whatever you could to keep him... 668 00:42:03,085 --> 00:42:04,652 Everything I could do to keep him here, 669 00:42:04,783 --> 00:42:06,567 but like I said, all this, what is in here 670 00:42:06,698 --> 00:42:08,613 is all that we had. 671 00:42:08,743 --> 00:42:11,461 Every chance that we tried to use 672 00:42:11,485 --> 00:42:14,706 did not hold water according to the D.A., 673 00:42:14,836 --> 00:42:17,970 and, of course, he was right. 674 00:42:18,100 --> 00:42:20,102 When they couldn't get him on the murder, 675 00:42:20,233 --> 00:42:21,776 what investigators did is they were trying 676 00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,106 to put something together 677 00:42:24,237 --> 00:42:27,327 so they could get Sam Little off of, off the streets 678 00:42:27,457 --> 00:42:30,635 and be sure he didn't kill anybody else. 679 00:42:30,765 --> 00:42:32,637 And so that's when investigators found out 680 00:42:32,767 --> 00:42:34,508 there's two other prostitutes, 681 00:42:34,639 --> 00:42:36,704 two other victims that have survived 682 00:42:36,728 --> 00:42:38,947 similar attacks in Pascagoula 683 00:42:39,078 --> 00:42:41,689 on previous dates. 684 00:42:41,820 --> 00:42:43,299 They fought back, 685 00:42:43,430 --> 00:42:45,954 and-and they were able to survive the attack 686 00:42:46,085 --> 00:42:48,696 Leila McClain 687 00:42:48,827 --> 00:42:51,177 and Hilda Nelson. 688 00:43:08,803 --> 00:43:11,197 Hilda and Leila, 689 00:43:11,327 --> 00:43:13,678 both these women come to the station, 690 00:43:13,808 --> 00:43:17,290 and they pick Sam Little out of a lineup. 691 00:43:17,420 --> 00:43:20,467 And they positively ID'd him 692 00:43:20,598 --> 00:43:23,165 as strangling them and trying to kill them. 693 00:43:33,349 --> 00:43:35,351 These two women, 694 00:43:35,482 --> 00:43:37,460 they were the strongest case we had against Sam Little 695 00:43:37,484 --> 00:43:39,244 at the time, even though we suspected him 696 00:43:39,268 --> 00:43:41,507 of killing Melinda LaPree. 697 00:43:41,531 --> 00:43:43,882 But these were prostitutes. 698 00:43:44,012 --> 00:43:45,511 You're gonna have a difficult time 699 00:43:45,535 --> 00:43:48,451 trying to get credibility up with a jury. 700 00:43:48,582 --> 00:43:51,193 They'd been arrested, probably numerous times, 701 00:43:51,324 --> 00:43:54,022 and, "How can you believe them?" 702 00:43:54,153 --> 00:43:55,154 But we had to try. 703 00:44:12,127 --> 00:44:16,107 I believe it was an enormous act of courage 704 00:44:16,131 --> 00:44:18,196 and faith 705 00:44:18,220 --> 00:44:21,180 on the part of these women 706 00:44:21,310 --> 00:44:23,617 who were Black prostitutes, 707 00:44:23,748 --> 00:44:27,403 and they still came to testify against him. 708 00:44:28,491 --> 00:44:32,626 They walked for miles to the courthouse, 709 00:44:32,757 --> 00:44:35,977 and Hilda was pregnant 710 00:44:36,108 --> 00:44:38,414 at the time. 711 00:44:38,545 --> 00:44:42,046 When they walked in and Hilda saw Sam, 712 00:44:42,070 --> 00:44:45,378 she was so frightened, she urinated. 713 00:45:16,844 --> 00:45:18,977 Hilda talks about being on the stand 714 00:45:19,107 --> 00:45:22,763 and actually being so upset and nervous. 715 00:45:22,894 --> 00:45:27,246 And, I think that's where things kind of went bad. 716 00:45:27,376 --> 00:45:29,615 Something happened. 717 00:45:29,639 --> 00:45:31,835 For some reason, we could not even get an indictment 718 00:45:31,859 --> 00:45:34,166 against Sam Little, 719 00:45:34,296 --> 00:45:36,777 which means that there were gonna be no charges. 720 00:45:36,908 --> 00:45:39,606 Hilda and, Leila, 721 00:45:39,737 --> 00:45:41,521 we failed them, in my opinion. 722 00:45:58,451 --> 00:46:01,082 There was such a miscarriage of justice 723 00:46:01,106 --> 00:46:03,630 in the cases of Leila McClain 724 00:46:03,761 --> 00:46:06,217 and Hilda Nelson 725 00:46:06,241 --> 00:46:08,940 and also in the murder of Melinda LaPree. 726 00:46:11,551 --> 00:46:15,337 That's what really, really eats at me. 727 00:46:15,468 --> 00:46:17,949 Sam Little, he was in custody, 728 00:46:18,079 --> 00:46:20,255 but they said that they couldn't prosecute 729 00:46:20,386 --> 00:46:23,084 because, the, the only witnesses 730 00:46:23,215 --> 00:46:25,870 were 731 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,176 I remember them saying "junkies and whores," 732 00:46:28,307 --> 00:46:30,962 but it was words to that effect, 733 00:46:31,092 --> 00:46:32,940 because that's the sort of, 734 00:46:32,964 --> 00:46:35,053 witness that, you know, gets shredded 735 00:46:35,183 --> 00:46:37,098 by defense attorneys and that sort of thing. 736 00:46:37,229 --> 00:46:39,927 You know, it really angered me deeply. 737 00:46:46,455 --> 00:46:48,390 I don't know. 738 00:46:48,414 --> 00:46:50,590 I don't know if it was because of, 739 00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:53,593 her occupation. 740 00:46:53,723 --> 00:46:57,640 I don't know if it was because of the color of her skin. 741 00:46:57,771 --> 00:46:59,571 I'd hate to think that, because I don't think 742 00:46:59,642 --> 00:47:02,186 we're that kind of town or community. 743 00:47:02,210 --> 00:47:04,473 I don't know. It's just one of those... 744 00:47:04,604 --> 00:47:06,444 It's kind of hard to believe that, you know 745 00:47:09,043 --> 00:47:11,437 that these things actually happen. 746 00:47:15,397 --> 00:47:17,269 I mean, really, 747 00:47:17,399 --> 00:47:21,447 Leila McClain summed it up to a T 748 00:47:21,577 --> 00:47:24,948 when she said, "Ain't nobody gonna believe" 749 00:47:24,972 --> 00:47:27,627 "a Black prostitute in Pascagoula, Mississippi, 750 00:47:27,757 --> 00:47:29,977 in 1982." 751 00:47:30,108 --> 00:47:32,893 And I can't say it any better than that, 752 00:47:33,024 --> 00:47:35,654 'cause it's exactly the truth. 753 00:47:43,469 --> 00:47:47,952 I was pretty devastated by that first conversation 754 00:47:48,082 --> 00:47:51,520 with Sam Little in prison. 755 00:47:51,651 --> 00:47:53,653 It's pretty nerve-racking. 756 00:47:53,783 --> 00:47:57,483 It has a physical effect on you. 757 00:47:59,137 --> 00:48:03,358 I was feeling pretty sick of him 758 00:48:03,489 --> 00:48:05,336 and his lies. 759 00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:08,209 I decided, "I'm gonna visit him" 760 00:48:08,233 --> 00:48:10,626 "in prison again 761 00:48:10,757 --> 00:48:14,021 because these victims' stories are too important." 762 00:48:14,152 --> 00:48:17,827 And I was determined to get Sam to admit the truth. 763 00:48:26,599 --> 00:48:28,775 I talked to Hilda, who testified at your trial. 764 00:48:31,125 --> 00:48:33,060 Did she? 765 00:48:33,084 --> 00:48:35,149 Did she really lie? 766 00:48:35,173 --> 00:48:37,847 I knew that he was lying. 767 00:48:37,871 --> 00:48:39,699 I decided, 768 00:48:39,829 --> 00:48:41,788 "If he lies to me again, 769 00:48:41,919 --> 00:48:44,549 I'm done, I'm out." 770 00:48:44,573 --> 00:48:46,812 I'm like, I'm not gonna sit there 771 00:48:46,836 --> 00:48:50,014 and listen to him bullshit 772 00:48:50,144 --> 00:48:54,366 about these crimes and murders I know he committed. 773 00:48:54,496 --> 00:48:55,976 You tell me the truth right now. 774 00:48:56,107 --> 00:48:57,847 You did not hit Hilda? 775 00:49:02,852 --> 00:49:04,811 Sam Little is a psychopath, 776 00:49:04,942 --> 00:49:08,249 so every interaction he has 777 00:49:08,380 --> 00:49:11,078 is transactional, right? 778 00:49:11,209 --> 00:49:13,491 It means, like, "I'll give you something, 779 00:49:13,515 --> 00:49:15,691 you give me something." 780 00:49:15,822 --> 00:49:18,148 And he started trying to work me, 781 00:49:18,172 --> 00:49:21,741 and, um, you know, "I want this, I want that. 782 00:49:21,871 --> 00:49:24,700 I want canteen money. I want a TV." 783 00:49:24,831 --> 00:49:27,007 And I said, 784 00:49:27,138 --> 00:49:31,814 "I-I-I-I want things, too, Sam." 785 00:49:31,838 --> 00:49:35,407 It was just this moment 786 00:49:35,537 --> 00:49:37,887 where we were, like, frozen 787 00:49:38,018 --> 00:49:40,412 and eyes locked, 788 00:49:40,542 --> 00:49:43,893 and I know that he knew that I was out 789 00:49:44,024 --> 00:49:47,593 if he didn't start talking. 790 00:49:47,723 --> 00:49:50,204 And he was like, 791 00:49:50,335 --> 00:49:53,468 "Okay, you got me. 792 00:49:53,599 --> 00:49:55,719 What do you want to know for your book, little miss?" 793 00:49:59,344 --> 00:50:01,824 Yeah, I want you to tell me a little story. 794 00:50:25,718 --> 00:50:30,114 It took me a minute to realize 795 00:50:30,244 --> 00:50:32,203 he's confessing. 796 00:50:55,269 --> 00:50:57,054 So you didn't mean to kill her? 797 00:51:06,193 --> 00:51:08,282 "With that, he began to tell me 798 00:51:08,413 --> 00:51:10,763 "about the women he had killed. 799 00:51:10,893 --> 00:51:13,157 "With astonishing detail 800 00:51:13,287 --> 00:51:15,898 "and near photographic recall, 801 00:51:16,029 --> 00:51:18,118 "he took me back through his past, 802 00:51:18,249 --> 00:51:20,512 "when the road was his home 803 00:51:20,642 --> 00:51:23,819 "and the back alleys and underbelly bars 804 00:51:23,950 --> 00:51:27,625 "in city after city across the country 805 00:51:27,649 --> 00:51:31,392 offered a feast of low-hanging fruit." 806 00:51:34,787 --> 00:51:38,288 When Sam first started confessing to me, 807 00:51:38,312 --> 00:51:40,836 then it was like the floodgates opened, 808 00:51:40,967 --> 00:51:43,274 and he told me about another one, 809 00:51:46,190 --> 00:51:47,321 and another one 810 00:51:50,455 --> 00:51:51,456 another one 811 00:51:55,721 --> 00:51:56,721 another one. 812 00:52:00,465 --> 00:52:03,207 He told me about 13 murders that day. 813 00:52:27,361 --> 00:52:30,538 Just to sit there a foot from this person 814 00:52:30,669 --> 00:52:33,802 who is talking about this so dismissively, 815 00:52:33,933 --> 00:52:36,370 I felt a rage 816 00:52:36,501 --> 00:52:40,983 unlike anything I've ever felt. 817 00:52:41,114 --> 00:52:45,379 I wasn't shocked because 818 00:52:45,510 --> 00:52:48,489 I'm not shocked 819 00:52:48,513 --> 00:52:53,257 that there's this, like 820 00:52:53,387 --> 00:52:56,956 casual and vicious violence 821 00:52:57,086 --> 00:52:58,610 against women. 822 00:53:00,177 --> 00:53:01,613 I've seen it. 823 00:53:01,743 --> 00:53:03,180 I know it. 824 00:53:04,703 --> 00:53:07,053 I want to know why. 825 00:53:07,184 --> 00:53:10,187 Why? Why, and how? 826 00:53:13,015 --> 00:53:15,192 Once she started visiting Sam in prison, 827 00:53:15,322 --> 00:53:17,629 that really awoke a lot 828 00:53:17,759 --> 00:53:19,587 of different kind of demons in her. 829 00:53:19,718 --> 00:53:22,349 There was just no way of telling 830 00:53:22,373 --> 00:53:24,853 what the story was gonna grow into 831 00:53:24,984 --> 00:53:27,552 and-and the effect it would have on us 832 00:53:27,682 --> 00:53:30,207 and how immense 833 00:53:30,337 --> 00:53:32,687 the power and destruction of this man was 834 00:53:32,818 --> 00:53:34,796 when we started. 835 00:53:38,389 --> 00:53:42,654 I feel connected to these women's stories. 836 00:53:42,784 --> 00:53:44,917 I can imagine the last moments 837 00:53:45,047 --> 00:53:46,614 of these women's lives 838 00:53:46,745 --> 00:53:49,400 and that they were dismissed and invisible 839 00:53:49,530 --> 00:53:51,619 for all of these years. 840 00:53:56,145 --> 00:53:58,191 And Samuel Little 841 00:53:58,322 --> 00:54:02,239 was the only one who held these stories. 842 00:54:02,369 --> 00:54:05,957 And I was like, "You are not entitled to this." 843 00:54:05,981 --> 00:54:08,419 Like, "You don't get to have this." 844 00:54:08,549 --> 00:54:11,378 And there are many more unidentified victims 845 00:54:11,509 --> 00:54:12,640 out there. 846 00:54:16,340 --> 00:54:18,579 We go to the sheriff office, 847 00:54:18,603 --> 00:54:20,387 and he tells us, 848 00:54:20,518 --> 00:54:22,235 "Well, you know, if-if y'all want to find out 849 00:54:22,259 --> 00:54:23,738 "who killed her so bad, 850 00:54:23,869 --> 00:54:26,785 why don't y'all just go find out?" 851 00:54:26,915 --> 00:54:28,830 I don't feel 852 00:54:28,961 --> 00:54:31,137 that she was important enough 853 00:54:31,268 --> 00:54:34,575 to them to investigate. 854 00:54:34,706 --> 00:54:36,447 It broke my heart. 855 00:54:40,451 --> 00:54:43,802 My mother was taken from us from an evil person 856 00:54:43,932 --> 00:54:47,284 who shouldn't even be living. 857 00:54:47,414 --> 00:54:49,677 After my sister was murdered, 858 00:54:49,808 --> 00:54:52,376 it just started eating me alive. 859 00:54:52,506 --> 00:54:53,942 I came very close 860 00:54:54,073 --> 00:54:55,814 to taking my own life. 861 00:54:59,121 --> 00:55:02,473 We have limited time. 862 00:55:02,603 --> 00:55:06,583 Sam Little, he's an old man. He's not well. 863 00:55:06,607 --> 00:55:09,393 And when he dies, 864 00:55:09,523 --> 00:55:13,266 many of these unsolved cases will die with him. 865 00:55:13,397 --> 00:55:16,574 I will never rest 866 00:55:16,704 --> 00:55:20,554 until I can restore the names 867 00:55:20,578 --> 00:55:23,015 of these victims. 868 00:55:23,145 --> 00:55:25,974 How many women have you killed? 869 00:55:26,105 --> 00:55:27,865 I want the truth. 870 00:55:27,889 --> 00:55:28,889 I think that...